Episode 32: Management Versus Leadership: Learn The Key Differences And Start To Lead Your People Better With Jordan Modiano
Jordan Modiano
Jordan Modiano, a leadership consultant, public speaker, and mentor who touches the lives of those he encounters. His personality is characterized by intensity, honesty, passion, and a competitive spirit. He is the owner of Express Employment Professionals in the Capital Region of New York, a firm dedicated to helping companies discover outstanding employees, boost profitability, reduce staff turnover, and assist individuals in finding fulfilling jobs.
Before establishing Express Employment Professionals, Jordan's career was deeply rooted in the sales aspect of the advertising industry. Moreover, he's a professional racecar driver, using this platform, among others, to raise funds and advocate for autism awareness, a cause close to his heart as the father of a daughter with autism.
Jordan is a man on a mission to effect change on an individual level, personifying the belief that every single person can make a difference. This is evident in all aspects of his life, from personal relationships to his impactful work at Express Employment Professionals. Through his firm, he transforms lives by creating job opportunities, and through his speaking career offering leadership training, and inspiring others with his motivational speeches.
What sets leadership apart from management? The difference lies in the people piece. Entrepreneur, motivational speaker and leadership consultant Jordan Modiano joins us on the podcast to share his thoughts. He passionately shares his belief that people should be led, not managed, and delves into the critical traits that define a true leader. Drawing from personal experiences and anecdotes, he emphasizes the importance of active listening, availability, and the courage to engage in tough conversations as essential qualities of effective leadership. Jordan stresses the significance of being a compassionate, empathetic leader who prioritizes building strong relationships with team members, empowering them to achieve both personal and professional success. Plus, learn about his personal mission that drives the impactful things he does as the franchise owner of Express Employment Professionals – Capital Region of NY. Tune in for more!
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Management Versus Leadership: Learn The Key Differences And Start To Lead Your People Better With Jordan Modiano
I'm joined by Jordan Modiano, a leadership consultant, public speaker, and mentor who touches the lives of those he encounters, myself included. His personality is characterized by intensity, honesty, passion, and a competitive spirit. He is the Owner of Express Employment Professionals in the capital region of New York. He is dedicated to helping companies discover outstanding employees, boost profitability, reduce staff turnover, and help people find fulfilling jobs.
Before establishing Express Employment Professionals, Jordan's career was deeply rooted in the sales aspect of the advertising industry. He's also a professional race car driver, using this platform among others to raise funds and advocate for autism awareness, a cause close to his heart as he is the father of a daughter with autism.
Jordan is a man on a mission to change the world one person at a time and believes that every person can make a difference. This is evident in all aspects of his life from his personal relationships to his work at Express Employment Professionals. Throughout his firm, he transforms lives by creating job opportunities. Through his speaking career, he offers leadership training and inspires others with his motivational speeches. He is a master storyteller. I have personally heard many of his stories, and every time, I leave the conversation feeling more inspired, more energized, and super motivated. Not to put any pressure on Jordan, but I know he is going to do the same for this audience. Welcome to Prospecting on Purpose.
Thank you so much. That was an incredible introduction. Talk about not putting any pressure on me. How am I going to live up to that introduction?
I have faith that you will deliver. Before we get into all the juicy goodness, I need to ask some questions about race car driving. I don't know anything about racing cars. If I could ask you, what's the most interesting or jaw-dropping piece of trivia you would share about racing cars?
I don't think there is any one thing that's interesting because there are so many different types of racing cars. Everybody has seen Fast and the Furious. There’s street racing. There’s drag racing with cars that in less than 3 seconds hit over 200 or 300 miles an hour. Everybody knows about NASCAR and going around in circles seems crazy. Why would you want to drive in circles for hours?
What I happen to do that is probably the closest thing to NASCAR on dirt is dirt racing on an oval. What's something that's unique about it is that for the most part, all of these drivers get out onto a racetrack. You strap a helmet on and tighten up your belt, and you're all alone and everybody is the enemy. As soon as you're done, everybody is family again. It is an incredible racing community and an incredible racing family. I've seen throughout my life how racers come together to help with different causes and to help other racers. It's amazing what the racing community can do for each other.
I heard three big takeaways there. One, I've never put thought into the different types of racing, so thanks for giving us some language there. I like everybody is the enemy and then everybody is family. I feel like there are some sales parallels to draw there. I like using the platform and using the community for good. That speaks to your message and what your core being is. I appreciate that rundown. I'm excited to dive into some of these things. As I was preparing for this interview, I saw a quote on your website specifically about leadership. The quote read, “You can't and shouldn't manage people. People should be led.” Can you dive into what you mean by that?
You can't and shouldn't manage people. People should be led.
It's simple. If you think about the things in your life that you manage. I know my mother, because she's older, still manages her checking account. She still manages her checkbook and uses a check log. Most people don't do that anymore, but they do manage their finances, whether it's logging into their bank and seeing where they are or doing something online. That's what gets managed.
There are production managers in all types of companies that manage a process. That could be anything from the production process of creating widgets. I'm making up names, but that's a manager. Walmart has inventory managers. They've got to figure out what's going to sell off the shelves and what's not going to sell off the shelves. You have schedule managers where you manage a schedule. You can have logistics managers where you manage what's getting shipped and what's not getting shipped.
Everything that we're talking about that we manage is an item. It's not living and breathing beings that have thoughts of themselves or that have the ability to do things for themselves. You don't manage people. You can't pick a person up, put them in a specific box, and expect a certain set of outcomes. You have to lead people. It becomes a much different mindset.
Management Versus Leadership: You don't manage people. You can't pick a person up and put them in a specific box and expect a certain set of outcomes. You have to lead people.
The mindset is hard to break sometimes because most positions, while leadership positions have manager titles. They just do. It's hard to step out of that and say, “My title says office manager. Part of my job is to make sure we don't run out of inventory in the office. Part of my job is to make sure that we have the right staff at the right time. The bigger and more important part of my job is to be the office leader and to lead by example, help people when they need them, be empathetic, hold accountability, and do all those other things that a true leader is doing to get the most out of people.” Does that help clarify that quote?
That was excellent. Now, I have a bunch more questions. I feel like the reason why you're putting this out there is it's not talked about as openly as it should be. Is that an accurate statement?
It's not talked about as openly as it should be. Even more than that, what we see happen on a consistent and regular basis is people who can do a job really well. Let's use making widgets. It doesn't offend anybody. We're going to talk about making widgets. We've got a group of fifteen people who make widgets. Bob, Bonnie, or whoever makes widgets better than anybody else. They're higher quality, higher quantity, faster, no mistakes, etc.
We then have an opening for a manager for the widget department. It only makes sense that we give it to the top performer, right? Absolutely not. Just because they’re the best at making the widgets and they could do them with better quality and faster doesn’t necessarily mean they should run the department. Maybe they could be the QC manager and do quality control because they understand what a good product looks like and how many should come out, but it doesn't mean they know how to motivate people. It doesn't mean they know how to be an active listener. It doesn't mean they know how to hold people accountable and get the most out of people.
Being in an employment agency and dealing with so many companies, we see that time and time again where we have people who don't want to stay working someplace because management is just that. You've got that person who is doing the great widgets who gets the job as manager. They get a term that I like to call manageritis. Now, they have a title. They are the bomb, “Do what I say. Don't worry about what I do. I have the title and you don't. I'm better than you.” That's so far from being a leader.
Bob and Bonnie get the role and then they don't necessarily have those core competencies to lead people. You talk about the example of people wanting to leave. You always hear quotes that the reason why somebody leaves a job is more often than not, they dislike their manager. You never hear that quote saying they dislike their leader. I never thought about it that way.
There's a great book. I forget the name of the author but it is called Monday Morning Leadership. Right on the front of the book, it says people quit people, not companies.
In one of my roles that I resigned from years ago, my direct boss who I love said, “Is this a management issue?” I said, “Of course not.” That was the biggest concern he had and it was not the case. We have a great relationship still. He's a great mentor of mine. He was a great leader. He always asked me for feedback and let me run with my guardrails. I loved working for that man. I'd be curious. What do you think are the critical differences between managers and leaders? If you're looking at the line of fifteen, how do the decision-makers decide who to elevate?
You can't just look at the line of the fifteen widget makers and decide who. You've got to spend some time getting to know them. Many times, if you sit back and watch from afar, leaders shine to the occasion. You don't need the title to be a leader. Most of the great leaders I know, at some point in time, were on a team. They were the natural leaders. They’re in the group of their friends and they’re the natural leaders. They’re the ones. The reason they are the ones is they have some inherent skills that can be taught, but more often than not, they're a natural ability. For those who don't have them, they've got to work hard for them.
Being an active listener and listening to understand and comprehend is an important aspect of a leader. People want to communicate with you, and it's your job to take in that communication. That's one. I'm going to say having some thick skin because if you're a leader, you've got to be able to take honest feedback. Sometimes, it sucks. We've all received feedback that sucks. What you do with that feedback is everything.
I will tell you I'm a far better leader now than I was a year ago. I was far better a year ago than I was when I first opened up Express Employment. When I first opened Express, I was far better than when I started my first business years ago. That's because people call me out. I get called out on a regular basis. We had a challenging issue and I had somebody tell me, “Go take a walk.” The real message was, “You're not handling this in the best way right now. Go cool off.” I needed that. I didn't get upset. I didn't get offended by it. They called me out. Leaders need to know that.
Leaders also need to be able to have tough conversations. Tough conversations are hard because there are a lot of people in this world who think to be a good leader, you need to be liked. That's a nice benefit if you happen to get it, but I'd much rather be respected. Understand that as a leader, I'd rather be respected. There are many managers who'd say, “I don't care if you respect me or not, you're going to do what I tell you to do. I'm okay being feared.” You don't want your people to fear you. You don't want people to cringe when you walk into the room. You want to walk into the room and have people excited that you're there. You want people who want to run through walls for you. That's a major component of what that leadership is like.
My team jokes around. They have a nickname for me, the janitor, because I’m like, “I'll clean the bathroom. I'll take out the garbage. I'll do whatever I need to do.” We did a major sales blitz and I was running around with cookies, donuts, and coffee for people. I’m like, “What can I get you to help you succeed today?” It is way different than a management mindset where I'd be sitting in an office, looking over a window, looking down on the floor of people, and saying, “Who's performing what? Let's look at the numbers. Let's have a conversation and go yell at somebody because they're not performing to the level they should be performing at.”
There are so many things to run with.
I went crazy. I’m sorry.
I liked it. Active listening, I thought that was excellent. I appreciated the line of, “People want to communicate with you and it's your job to allow that.” I think about the leaders versus managers that I've collaborated with and you're right. Communication has to be a two-way street. People have to feel comfortable coming to you.
With that, you have to make sure you have the availability and they have the opportunity for that communication. My team knows my phone is on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If they need to talk to me on the weekend, they can. Unless I'm doing something with one of my team members or I am in a meeting or a show like this, my door is open. Come on in and talk to me. I have no problem with that. You need to be an active listener, but you also have to be available for that communication.
Excellent clarification, structure and time to be accessible. Thick skin and tough convos, I want to dive into those two. I appreciated how you talked about being open to being called out. That's an area where people struggle. When you think about being liked versus respected versus feared, I do see clear delineations between a manager going the fear route versus a leader going the respected route. I almost tie those two things to confidence and arrogance.
I talk a lot about confidence. There's a difference between confidence and being secure in what you bring to the table. I put that in the respect bucket or the leadership bucket. When you think about arrogance, I would put that in the fear bucket. This is how you think a manager should behave so you're acting this way instead of being your authentic, confident, and respected self. Active listening, availability, thick skin, and tough convos. Are there any other traits that stand out as what makes a natural leader?
There are so many that make a natural leader. I think of humility. Natural leaders have to have humility. That goes back to your arrogance and confidence. You need to be humble. Humility is not necessarily thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less. It is the concept of, “If I'm a leader, my job isn't to make my company make a gazillion dollars. My job is to help everybody who works at my company be extremely successful however they define success.” That's an important part. It goes back to active listening.
If success for Bob who is making widgets is to run a department and that's what he wants, we've got to figure out what skills Bob needs, what he has, and how we get him there. If we talked about Bonnie and her success is to be able to own her own home with a white picket fence and two dogs, we've got to figure out how to help her get there. Those are two different things. It is active listening, understanding, and being available for your people to help them achieve their goals. If they’re achieving their goals, I promise you, they’re going to help you achieve your goals.
Look at this, everyone. He's dropping truth bombs left and right. Using the Bonnie and Bob example, how do you as a leader carve out the time to understand what their personal and professional goals are? Is it asking? Do you have a process or a structure for that?
Yes and no. The size of the company makes a difference. We've got under fifteen employees, so I have the opportunity and availability to get to know everybody on a personal basis. I get to spend some time every week with people and learn what's important and what's not. Some of that comes from the culture of who we are and the open-door policy.
As companies grow and as we grow and we have 30 or 40 people, I might not be able to do that with 30 or 40 people. I might have it with 15, but then in that 15, I'm going to have my core leadership team. It’s not the management team but the leadership team, and they've got to have it with theirs. It becomes a trickle-down.
How do you find the time? Like anything else, you've got to determine what is a priority and what's not. I can decide that sitting with my bookkeeper and reviewing revenue is a priority and my people aren't. I could decide, “Bookkeeper, can you send me the reports? I'll look at them tonight or on the weekend,” because my priority during the day is I've got to get to my team. I have to spend some time with my team.
I love that, prioritizing leadership.
My team and I have a saying, “If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If not, you'll find an excuse.”
If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If not, you'll find an excuse.
The people that work for those managers can tell.
100%. Managers who don't talk to you, who don't check in, or who don't do some of this stuff, that is what it is. I'm a number. Leaders want to know what's going on, “How's your day going? What's going on?” If you're in tune with your team, you pick up on things. Some people are better at it than others. That's just the way it is. Some people pick up on it too much.
I work with somebody who's a huge empath. We've got a team member who's going through trouble and she feels it. It's amazing to see. I feel bad for her because she feels the same pain they feel. That also builds such an amazing relationship that she has the ability to understand what they're going through. That's a natural-born trait. You can't teach that to somebody.
I like that you're using that as one of her strengths too because most managers would put that in a weakness category.
100%. Here's the thing about strengths and weaknesses. It doesn't make a difference what it is, but anything to an extreme is going to be a weakness. I could take my leadership to an extreme and care so much about people, put people first, and do this and do that, but I'm going to end up hurting the business. I still have to manage the business. My role as a leader is to lead my people.
It doesn't mean I forgot about managing the business. I still have to pay attention to the finances. I still have to pay attention to the numbers. I still have to marry all of that together and realize if Bonnie is having some struggles and some tough times, as a leader, I need to help her and coach her through that. As the guy who manages and runs the business, I have to make sure that we’re focused on not only helping her but we have to help the company as well.
At the very clear lines in the sand between manager and leader, I can already tell in our conversations and how I've been thinking about things, I'm dropping them into the appropriate buckets a little bit more consistently. Thank you for giving us this language because it's powerful. Before we switch gears, because I do want to talk about your personal mission, if people are tuning in to this and they feel that maybe they have some negative management techniques, how can you help give them some tools to flip it into more positive leadership styles?
We've done this before with some folks. If you're struggling with negative management techniques, there are a few key things to think about. Number one, are you doing and portraying the role that you would like your people to do? If you have an expectation that your people are going to show up early every day, are you showing up early every day? If you have an expectation that your people are going to dot their Is, cross their Ts, and turn out high-quality work, are you turning out high-quality work? Those are some basics. Manager is, “Do what I say, not what I do.” Leadership is, “Follow my example.”
Walk the talk too.
Follow my example. Walk the walk and talk the talk. You do it all. That's one component of the difference. The second difference is leadership is getting to know the people. They are people. They're not widgets. You have to know your people. You have to have an understanding that four people doing the same exact thing all feel differently about what they're doing. They all see it differently and they all want to be someplace else differently in five years. You can't motivate them the same way. You can't treat them the same way. You need to understand the differences between them.
Get to know the people you have. They are people, not widgets.
Widget maker number 1 having a bad day can be completely different than why widget-maker number 2 is having a bad day. They both might be work-related, and they both might be caused by widget number 3. One might be unhappy with the way widget-maker number 3 speaks to them, and one might be unhappy that widget-maker 3 three isn't keeping up with production levels because they want more for the team. Back to open listening and hearing, leaders have to connect with people. They've got to understand that with people.
I'm thinking of many past examples as you're giving those examples. The same boss that I mentioned when I left that role, at the time, I shared an office with him. I managed the commercial team and he managed the residential team. We shared an office and we could not be more opposites. We got along great. Everyone cracked up over our friendship. We could not have been more different.
We both reported to the same leader. When that leader would start meetings with my colleague, they would get right into business. There is no fluff, no chitchat. Nothing could offend the other one. When I had my touch bases, it was always, “How are your grandma and grandpa?” We had to all the chitchat catch. I knew he was doing that for me, not for him. We would talk once a week. That's when I would talk to him. We’d get up to speed on the grandparents and then we get into work.
You're talking about personality styles and mirroring personalities. We do something called a DISC assessment. I know that's exactly what he did because as you described him, he was considered a high D. He was a doer or dominant and gets things done. You're a high I. You're very much into people. You need that fluff and that, “How are you doing?”
I'm a high D. I don't need any of that fluff. We can go right into the conversation. When I and another high D are speaking, people sit on the sideline. They're like watching a fast tennis match. It's facts. I'll be done and I'll go have a conversation with somebody. They’ll say, “Did you talk to Bob today?” I’ll be like, “I did.” They’ll be like, “How's he doing?” I’ll be like, “No clue. That wasn't part of the conversation.”
If I have a conversation with somebody who's a high I or an SI, SI is going to be more supportive. I is more influential. They're way more people-oriented. They’re like, “How are you doing? What's going on? How's the wife? How are the kids? How's grandma? How's whatever?” We need those niceties first. As a high D, I'm like, “Can we just get to this?”
As a leader, I have to do that because if I don't, whether I intended it to or not, I’m called not personable. I'm missing all of that. I've got to know where my strengths are and where my communication styles are, but I also need to know what everybody on my team is like. Remember, I said it's my job to communicate with them and their job to communicate with me. When they communicate with me, I have to make sure my reciprocating communication is in their style.
I didn't mean to take us down the DISC train, but I'm happy we're chatting about it. From a sales capacity, I enjoyed learning DISC because I could quickly identify who my customers were. I'm not going to send a long narrative email to a high D who just wants bullet points. I had to fire a couple of rep agencies and I was nervous about it. I was anxious about it, but I figured out they were Ds. I didn't do any fluff or BS. It was, “Here's the situation. Here's where I'm at. Here's what I need to communicate with you.” It was the most pleasant conversation. I was so happy with how it went. I know it was because I flexed to their style.
Circling back to managers versus leaders, we've all heard the phrase you have to manage your manager. I have worked for people or collaborated with people that were dotted-line leaders. As the subordinate, for lack of a better term, if I'm communicating, I'm doing my best to communicate in their style too. That's an interesting piece on the managers who couldn't flex to the other person's styles as opposed to the leaders who flex to the other person. That's a core differentiator.
It's a core differentiator. Going back to what we were talking about before, it is being available and open for that communication. If I have somebody on my team who's going to come and communicate with me, to make it easy for them and to make it so they can get what they need from me, my job is to communicate back with them in their style. As much as it's out of what I'm naturally comfortable with, that's my job.
As a manager, my mindset might be slightly different. My manager mindset might be slightly, “You're coming to me. You speak to me in my style.” By all means, I'm not saying all managers are like this. There are many managers who have the title of manager and down deep, they're just great leaders. It doesn't mean that because you have the title, you're not a phenomenal manager. We're talking about the people who have the title and they live to the manager ideal and not the leadership ideal.
There are many managers who have the title of manager, but deep down, they're just great leaders.
This line of communication and relationship with other people is a great example of being a leader in whatever your role is. I loved what you said at the top of the interview, “Anyone can be a leader.” We're talking very specifically about leading people as a reporting structure. If you have the ability to flex to the other person and speak in their style, that's core leadership regardless of what your role is or regardless of if you have direct reports.
I agree.
This is so fun. We understand the traits and qualities of impactful leaders. I would like to spend a little time here because I want to get into this. Your mission of changing the world one person at a time, what is the origin story here?
I don't know if I have one origin story. I'll go back years and give you some bits and pieces of stories to get to where I am now. It had to be 2004 or 2005. I was driving to work. My wife, at that time and still is, is a school psychologist with a PhD. It was a Monday morning. She called me on a Monday morning and let me know that she wasn't going to be in the elementary school where she normally worked in. She was called to go to the high school. I was like, “Why? What's up?” She said, “Unfortunately, one of the students committed suicide over the weekend.” She was going there to counsel other students, parents, and teachers.
I remember it very clearly. I even remember the road I was on. I remember the car I was in. I had my left turn signal on waiting to make a turn. I remember thinking to myself how sad I was that somebody hit that level and didn't get help. I remember in the same thought process being happy that my wife got to go do something that was going to make a difference, and then being a combination of sad and jealous that what I do doesn't impact people. I always had that void after that. At that point in time, I don't know if I was a national sales manager or sales trainer. I was in sales for one of the larger media groups in the capital region of New York. It was like, “Whatever. It doesn't impact people the same way.”
Fast forward to 2015 and I'm thinking about partnering or franchising with Express Employment Professionals. The more I learn about it, the more I learn how much we get to impact people and we get to change people's lives. I was like, “Aside from the ability to make an income and do something, I get to fulfill that component that's been missing in my life.” We start Express Employment Professionals and treat everybody with dignity. We give everybody hope. We understand we can't help everybody, but we can give hope to everybody. A few key lessons happened along the way that brought that out in me.
When we first started, I made it my mission to try and talk to everybody that we help. It's hard to do that. It is easy to talk to everybody on my team, but if we've got 30, 50, or 100 people out working, to know all of them or talk to all of them becomes hard. We had people who would show up on Friday afternoons to pick up a check. I would try every Friday afternoon to go up and talk to folks.
I remember this one particular Friday. It was a hot summer day. This guy would ride his bike to us every Friday afternoon after leaving work, drop off his time card, and pick up his check. I would always leave my office and see it. I go out and say hello and talk to people. This one particular Friday, I'm talking to him. I say to him, “Can I ask you a question?” He's like, “Sure.”
He was of Spanish descent and called me Mr. Jordan. I'm like, “Why do you come here every Friday? You don't need to come here. We can give you a pay card. We can get you a direct deposit. You can take a picture of your time card and text it to us. Your supervisor can scan it and email it to us. There are so many other ways than you having to drive or bike here on a hot summer day and do this.” He grabs my hand, shakes my hand, brings me up close, and goes, “I come here for you, Mr. Jordan.”
My eyes open up and I take a step back. Right into the wall behind me, I'm like, “For me? Why do you come here for me?” I'll never forget what he said. He said, “You're a big important man. You get out of your office and you come and talk to me. I know that I matter.” I was like, “I will never stop doing that.” I shook his hand and he walked out the door. I turned to Nicole who was sitting at my front desk and said, “Who was that?” I didn't know everybody's name. I'm not going to say his name on the show, but I will never forget his name. He will always leave that lasting impact.
As soon as he walked out the door, I grabbed my team together and said, “I want to tell you guys what happened,” and they had all heard it. I said, “If he's coming to me from that and I give him a minute of my time a week, what kind of impact are you guys having that we don't know about?” We are truly changing people's lives. I carry that with me because you don't know. We changed his life. He worked for us for a long time and then left. He then came back and worked for us again. It's had a ripple effect.
We've had people that we've hired internally who has gone through some stuff in their life. One of them, I was going to fire him on his fifth day because he was late twice in the first week. At that point in time, one of my young ladies pleaded for me to not fire him. I'm so glad I didn't because he ended up working out great. He ended up being with us for a long time. His brother now works for us. When he left and he left the market, we had a going away party for him. There's so much more I can get into, but for the sake of time, I won't.
He got me a plaque. He knew my mission became, “Change the world for one person at a time.” He got me a plaque that says, “Change the world for one person at a time.” It hangs in my other office. He wrote me the most meaningful letter I've ever received in my life about what he went through and how I was there for him all the while he was working. I didn't know he was going through everything he went through. I knew some and it was, “Wow.”
Management Versus Leadership: Change the world for one person at a time.
Fast forward, this story is probably the exclamation point because it's my longest work, but it's a good one. You've heard the story. I'm at a job fair. It's the tail end of the job fair and this woman comes walking into the job fair looking very professional. I'm like, “I wonder what she's doing here. It looks like she owns the place.” I ended up talking to her. She had some health issues and found herself at a point where she was unemployed. She was looking for work. I ended up talking to her and scheduled a time for her to come in for an interview.
She comes in for an interview. Do you know how you remember things in a specific way? She says it didn't exactly happen like this. I beg to differ, and I do believe my memory is better than hers. The way I remember it is she came into the office and I went around behind the desk. She closed the door before she sat down and says, “I want to be honest with you and tell you. I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober for 3 years,” or 4 years, whatever it was back then. She was like, “I lost my license. I don't drive, but it has never stopped me from getting anywhere.” I thought to myself, “This job requires a driver's license, but with that kind of brutal honesty, now I have to look for reasons not to hire this person because I like her.”
I love this brutal honesty and I like helping people. She just came here and had to practice some rigorous authenticity to do that. Rigorous authenticity is one of the things they've got to practice in their recovery. She had to surrender the outcome, which is one of the other things they have to practice, and do some uncomfortable stuff. I can't imagine how uncomfortable that is to tell a potential employer that as your opening line, and she did it.
I'll fast forward. I hired her as an office assistant and she did well at that. I then promoted her to an office manager and she did well at that. She grew. I'm going to say her title as office manager, she's a leader. She doesn't know how to manage. She is great at our processes and things like that, but she's not, “I have the title. You do what I say.” When I say she doesn't know how to manage, she doesn't know that. That does not come to her. Leading comes to her.
Over time, I was like, “She's helping us so much on our operations side,” because she is great with processes and policies. She comes from a legal background. I was like, “We're going to make her operations manager.” Operations leader is truly the title it should be, but operations leader sounds dumb. It’s an OM. It’s an Ops Manager, but she is a leader. Even the feedback she gets about leading is how empathetic she is, how understanding she is with people, and how she brings the fun way more than I do.
We have now the opportunity to do things like go and speak to the Albany Addiction Center. The Albany Addiction Center has two components to it. They've got a male side and a female side that they're kept separately. We've been down there a few times. The last was not too long ago. The amazing thing is that when we went down there on Monday, we were talking to women in the Albany Addiction Center. I start by telling them, "I want to share a story with you guys." I tell them the part that I told you.
Her name is Sarah. I had her standing there with me. I tell them, “This woman came to me. I hired her as an office assistant and then as an office manager. Eventually, she got promoted to operations manager. Here we are and she is seven-plus years sober. She got her license back. Within the last six months, she drives again. By the way, she's standing here to my left.” They all turn and look at her. It was like, “Oh my God.” Every single one of them can see hope. They can see inspiration. They know that there's somebody out there.
I'm not unique. There are a lot of people out there who want to take a chance and want to help somebody, but here's the best part of that whole story. Sarah has wanted to, on her own mission, help people and talk to people. Like the majority of the people in the world, there's a fear of public speaking. There's an anxiety that comes with it. I'm saying more of an anxiety than a fear. Anxiety is based on something that's perceived. The fear is based on something that's real. She's had that anxiety. When we got in the car to go, she said, “Look at these index cards. I want to talk today.” That was never a conversation we had. I said, “Heck, yeah.”
She got up there and went through her index cards. She aced it. She had people in the room crying. She was close to crying. Talking about the ripple effect of helping people change the world, I know for a fact some of those women are never going to forget that day. They're never going to forget Sarah. They're going to have a conversation with somebody later on down the road and say, “I met this woman who did this.” I told them when she was done, “She's always been afraid of doing this. Her growth is still happening. She did it.” They clapped for her. They were so proud of her. It's how we are.
You can very clearly see the ripple effect in these stories and how one act of taking a chance and being open to something that maybe you haven't been open to in the past. What would've happened if you hadn't hired her? She's been with you for how many years?
Five years or six to seven years. I don't know how long she's been with me. It feels like she's been with me forever. You're so right. What would've happened if I didn't hire her? My impact wouldn't be nearly as high as it is. Our impact wouldn't be as high as it is. I probably wouldn't have the same team that I have because there are some of them that gravitate toward her. In some cases, she keeps me in check from not reverting to being a manager sometimes.
I think about what you were talking about. The feedback that she gets from the team on her leadership style is empathy and active listening, which are all of the traits that you outlined earlier in the interview about leadership qualities. It makes me think probably she can be open to being more empathetic because of her past struggles with alcohol. That can turn into a strength versus a weakness. Judgment is a perceived weakness. It's so cool that not only did you hire her but your business benefited by hiring her. The team that reports to her and works for her benefits. With the Albany Addiction Center, you're giving hope and a ripple effect to people in similar situations. That's so beautiful.
You are correct. She did have a troubled past, but haven't we all in some fashion or another? We can sit there and think, “I couldn't have gone through what she went through.” Maybe she couldn't have gone through what you went through or what I went through. We're all different. We all have our stuff. Going back to being a leader, it's your job to get to know that person.
I love hiring people who've had a challenge, people who've had a fight, and people who've been kicked down and got back up. Who would you rather have on your team, somebody who's taken a beating and got back up and is going to continue to fight another day, or somebody who's had it easy, and when that fight comes, you have no idea? Are they going to run and hide? Are they done? What are they?
Who would you rather have on your team? Somebody who's taken a beating and got back up and is going to continue to fight another day, or somebody who's read it really easy and when that fight comes, you have no idea if they're going to run and hide?
We've heard the phrase rock bottom is a great foundation upon which to build. It really is. You can hit different versions of rock bottom multiple times in different aspects of your life, but then it becomes a solid foundation on which to build. As long as you keep getting up and keep going, you win. Thomas Edison made 1,000 light bulbs that didn't work. He didn't fail 1,000 times. He learned 1,000 ways that didn't work. In his 1,001, he didn't repeat those. He just made slight modifications across the way and now we have light.
What you, Sarah, and people are putting out in the world, you're doing it very authentically too. I appreciate you being so open in this discussion because it's going to inspire others. In reading your bio, we've had a lot of speakers on this show. I'm a speaker as well, but I don't put the word motivational in front of anything. With you, you truly are the epitome of a motivational speaker. We just scratched the surface on this interview too. I know you have so many stories that we could put people into tears, but we try to keep the vibes not crying over here.
I do like that you shared that story with your wife going to the high school. I do appreciate that you talked about the feelings that you were feeling between sad for the child who committed suicide and happiness that your wife gets to help, and a little mix of jealousy or this awakening that was a void. I like that because we can feel different things at the same time.
Just like in our work lives, you can be struggling with something on the personal side but still have to go get your job done. Hopefully, you have a leader that has two-way communication that you can share that with. I personally had a lot of nice takeaways from this discussion. I want to give a very sincere thank you for spending the time on the show.
Thank you for having me. I enjoyed the show.
We could talk about this all day.
I have plenty more. We could do it again.
Jordan is based in New York, but he's been doing speeches with the local business commerce and addiction center. How else can people find you and how can people work with you?
They can work with me in any number of ways. I hate to say this, but I haven't updated my website. I've got Express Employment Professionals in Albany and Saratoga. You can Google Express Employment Professionals Albany Saratoga and you're going to find me. You can Google Jordan Modiano motivational speaker and you're going to find me. You can go to JordanModiano.com. I've got a website. I need to get back to updating it, but I can only do so much.
I thought your website was good. I was like, “His website is put together.” What topics do you speak on? I know we went all around the board and just scratched the surface.
That's the amazing part. I like to custom-tailor my speeches. I talk about easy leadership and leadership training. I talk about a lot of sales or sales training. I talk about a lot of confidence building or self-confidence or self-motivation, and how to get out of your own head and get going. There are so many people in the world who have the opportunity to do more than they are doing and they get in their own head and don't do that. I've had conversations with organizations about coming and talking to their team and getting them pumped up. I’m like, “Let's go. We're kicking off a major staff meeting or a convention. Let's get a group of people pumped up and ready to go.” I do all of that.
You'd pump me up all the time. I feel like I need a pep talk. I'm so lucky we're friends and that I met you. I appreciate people that are out doing good in the world. In terms of changing the world one person at a time, I would put myself on that list. I know you're probably not keeping a formal list, but add me to the pile of people because you truly make an impact on me. I know that this episode's going to be very well-received. Thank you so much for joining. We'll be in touch soon.
Thank you.
